Symbols of Disbelief (Atheism/Freethought Symbols)

Atheism throughout history has, understandably, been a pretty private affair. In recent years, however, the rise of the atheist/agnostic “freethought” movement has brought active disbelief into the public arena, creating not just a camaraderie of unbelievers, but a sometimes actively anti-religious movement.

A number of atheist, pro-science, and related emblems have been proffered as symbols for nonbelievers, but none have any real consensus so far. I’ve compiled a brief, by no means exclusive list of some of the more popular emblems below.

Early symbols

atheism symbolOne of the earliest symbols is not a symbol of disbelief per se. The Humanist movement’s “happy human,” designed by Denis Barrington in 1965 for the International Humanist and Ethical Union. The little figure symbolized the humanist philosophy of people over religious dogma, and while popular with atheists, is not an explicitly atheist symbol.

atheism symbolThe earliest explicitly atheist symbol I’m aware of is the open-atom logo of the American Atheists, designed in the early sixties to place an emphasis on scientific curiosity and empirical thinking. While adopted early, it is not popular overall as it is trademarked by the organization.

The “evolve fish,” aka, the “Darwin fish,” a satirical jab at the ubiquitous “Jesus fish,” is one of several popular recent symbols:

atheism symbol

The “invisible pink unicorn” symbol was intentionally designed as an atheist identification symbol. The image alludes to a common argument against belief, contained within the mathematical symbol for an ‘empty set.’  The first mention of the IPU appeared in the mid-nineties on Usenet, from author Steve Eley:


atheism symbol“Invisible Pink Unicorns are beings of great spiritual power. We know this because they are capable of being invisible and pink at the same time. Like all religions, the faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorn is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible because we can’t see them.”


atheism symbolSo far, the real contender has been the “flying spaghetti monster,” which began as a variation of the “IPU” argument, but proved irresistible once reports of “miraculous appearances” of the parody deity began to roll in. FSM merchandise is abundant, and includes car medallions, t-shirts, posters, and more.

Other noteworthy images include the atheist ” Scarlet A” symbol, designed by Richard Dawkins for the “OUT” campaign, which encourages Atheists to be more outspoken:

atheism symbol

The circle/A emblem, somewhat resembling the Anarchist “A” symbol:

atheism symbol

The empty set (circle/slash) with or without cross (aka the “Bad Religion” logo), ghost, or other object representing religion:

atheism symbol

I any case, the issue is far from settled, at least as far as consensus goes.


Some of the recent debates:

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Atheists symbols | Greengovtv
September 3, 2012 at 12:08 pm


Leibniz January 15, 2014 at 4:11 am

Not following organised religion is not believing in nothing, it is in fact believing entirely in tangible, provable facts, definitely something to be proud of in a world governed by elitist fantasists. The ‘believe in nothing’ lobby is a deliberate negative distortion to paint atheism as an anarchic, lost, soulless underbelly. I reject the fact that Atheism requires a symbol of any sort as identification, why follow the lead of religion? The most corrupt, bloodthirsty, sexually deviant organisations on the planet do it and have done it in the name of or under cover of a supreme deity of one sort or another.

Death December 11, 2013 at 11:09 pm

What I can’t stand is when atheists argue . Yell and scream over someone who believes in god . You talk about how much better you are than someone who believes in a religion and how much you accept things Yet it’s you who want baby Jesus taken out of a lawn or Christmas music stoped . Why the hostility twords others believes ? Does it actually cause you physical harm to see a baby Jesus or a Santa or a cross? You people are intolerant of others . And mark my words it’ll get you thrown into the frying pan one of these days when people get tired of your senseless attacks on freedom of religion . You love facts so much . Where in the constitution does it say separation of church and state ? Please point that out. No I think you don’t believe in god because you don’t want to have to own up to the fact that there might be someone better than you that maybe you’ll have to answer for yourselves Or that you just want to have fun without thinking of consequence . But hey that’s just my opinion. Just stop these attacks on Christian faith . No ones hurting you stop hurting us . Things do have a way of turning around . Just remember that !

Anonymous January 12, 2014 at 1:38 pm

Santa!!?? Wow, you really are gullible. As the t-shirts state, atheists don’t fly planes into buildings; I don’t care if an individual wants to pick a god from the many available and worship him/her but keep it to yourself. I worry about the sanity of anyone who believes the universe and everything in it was created by a god.

Misinformed but not Mistaken November 13, 2013 at 3:14 pm

Higgs-Boson further confirms that theories concerning quantum mechanics are at odds with general relativity. While earthly phenomena are generally understood, the universe (or is it a multi-verse?) at large contains countless unknowns that scientists, with all our technology, simply cannot quantify. Religion, however, is an arcane attempt to explain the unknown thousands of years ago. Does that not suggest that neither science nor religion has it all figured out? Why not just agree that both science and religion are attempts to discover the origin of existence? These centuries-old adversaries have more in common than either is willing to admit.

Because_Logic September 19, 2013 at 12:57 pm

Higgs Boson–>Creation of matter–>Higgs Field proven–>Big Bang Theory proven to be very possible–>End of story

The Captain Was Here January 8, 2013 at 10:40 am

The “circle/A emblem” is also strongly reminiscent of the Star Trek uniform patch.

Venkatakrishnan P D September 9, 2012 at 12:12 pm

Much Ado About Nothing! Belief or disbelief is due to conditioning ! You are welcome to continue in your own path , giving the same freedom to others . What is really needed is harmonious co existence ! Peace on earth and goodwill to men !

Anonymous March 22, 2014 at 5:21 pm

Amen my friend. Acceptance of all people as long as they do no harm to others, both verbally & physically. Anti-theists are the worst they force beliefs onto others and viciously attack anyone who believes in God. It is an extremely strange thing.

Jensen August 29, 2012 at 8:29 pm

I am fourteen, I told my mother (she is religious, but does not go to church) “I was unsure of what I believed and that I was athiest.” Her reply to this was, ” Why would you do this to me! Knowing your not going to heaven kills me.” As if what I said was life changing for her and now when she looks at me she cries. This just strengthened me in not believing in god. Making people suffer as they do and causing such an uproar where there is no proof on either side. That is why I’m athiest…

Khaos July 26, 2012 at 7:00 pm

Athiesm is the belief that god doesnt exist rather than the belief in nothing. As for symbols i wish we had better ones.

science is measureable July 17, 2012 at 10:05 pm

Maybe the Higgs boson symbol? It is: H with a superscript 0. It’s just too juicy not to have the so-called ‘god particle’ as the symbol.

Jennifer May 2, 2013 at 11:14 pm

That would be a great addition!

Snike July 7, 2012 at 4:19 am

I have read a lot of comments here from people saying that Atheists identify themselves because they feel they have a moral high ground and such, this may be true in some cases but I feel I must represent the other side of the coin.

As an outspoken atheist I feel the need to identify myself not for my own sake but for others. Many of us hide in the closet in fear of persecution by our family/friends/co-workers ect. By not hiding my lack of faith from others I hope to encourage others who feel the same way to come out about it… not to convert others to my way of thinking.

Brianthedog June 28, 2012 at 12:16 am

Atheism is great, you should all try it. By accepting that there is no god, gods or other higher powers, by accepting that there is no heaven, humans can learn to be good to one another in their own lifetimes since that is all we have.

If an atheist is pushed though, he or she will often be proud to be an atheist since they have the moral high ground. An atheist chooses to be good without threat of punishment unlike believers in most evolved religions. Also, atheists as a rule aren’t complicit with killing in the name of atheism – since there is nothing to kill for, unlike most evolved religions.

Atheists are better human beings.

Debbie June 18, 2012 at 9:11 am

I was converted from religion after attending a school friends baptism on a hot summers day i watched sweating in my seat, while my friend got to have a swim.
On returning home unsure what the ritual was, i asked my parents if i could be crucified. my catholic parents were a little horrified once it was explained to me i just knew religion wasn’t my thing.

Proud atheist

Anonymous August 18, 2013 at 1:13 am

Yah, religions not my thing either, just getting to know Jesus is cool. Thanking Him daily for dying and shedding His blood on a cross for my sins, so I can have eternal life with Him. Thank you Lord for opening my eyes to see.

Nick June 8, 2012 at 5:39 pm

For many people, there was a stage of “conversion” from believing in a religion to not. For these people, this conversion can be a HUGE step in life, and can be completely direction changing, eye opening, mind opening, and can change their entire life’s “mantra”. For these things alone, yes it is common for people to be proud to believe in nothing because it defines who they are, where they have been, and what they have overcome.

stan April 3, 2012 at 11:43 pm

@Nathan, people who think “we don’t know” are called agnostics. People, who think god, does NOT exist are called atheists. People, who think God DOES exist are called “theists”.

life's not fair March 23, 2012 at 1:16 pm

Being an atheist means one is persuaded by (some might say ‘believes’ in) the balance of evidence. Given how much scientific endeavour has given our species I think such a mindset is absolutely something to be proud of. I would certainly not be proud to associate myself with something (i.e. religion) where there exists no evidence for the subject of my belief.

Just a thought March 23, 2012 at 12:52 am

@ To The Lone Believer
There is no need to disprove anything…that’s exactly the point of being a non-believer, atheist or agnostic. One cannot prove or disprove that a god exists, but the burden of proof is NOT on the want that doesn’t believe. The burden of proof is on the one claiming that it does. Most non-believers base their lives on palpable reality, on things they can experience with their senses and on facts that have been scientifically proven. We do not have the need to rely on having to have blind faith on religion and/or a god as means of achieving happiness and fulfillment in our lives. We atheists have chosen to live our lives without the need to comfort ourselves with notions of immortality, punishment/reward after death and the idea of having somebody else watching us from the sky and intervening in our lives. We have understood that what one believes is correlated to how we were raised, what was taught to us and passed on from childhood. Indoctrinated, really… I assume (forgive if I’m wrong) you are a believer in a christian god because you might have been born to parents that have that faith. If you would have been born in another part of the world where many other religions and beliefs are followed, you would probably believe something else. On your question; “what if it turns out if YOU wrong?”, look up Pascal’s wager for the answer to that one…peace.

Eric nelson August 18, 2013 at 1:32 am

There are many Christian that believe without growing up in a religion. My mother grew up in a Mormon religion and my dad, well I don’t know what he believes. I become a Christian by believing in God one day, just came out of blue. Awesome experience. I didn’t do a study on this, but I find it ironic that i see more get converted to Christianity from other religions than other way around. Just an observation not fact.

The Lone Believer(or so it seems) March 2, 2012 at 12:22 pm

Now I may actually start up a shit-storm here, but I do have a question for you all…When have scientists actually disproven God beyond a shadow of a doubt? What was the name of the experiment and such, the scientist? A number of you do seem to believe that science has already disproven God, but I have yet to see the concrete evidence. So far as I’ve seen, neither of the sides to our little argument have a truly solid and concrete piece of evidence to prove the validity of their statement. Just as some of you have said you KNOW there is NO God, I say I KNOW there IS a God. I just have one final thing to say, if I’m wrong, then when I die, I’ve lost absolutely nothing, because there was no meaning to this life other than what I put into it. But what if it turns out YOU are wrong?

Aidan January 14, 2012 at 4:05 pm

Okay, atheists do not belong to an organized religion, by definition. Maybe there are those who do, but they aren’t really atheist. Atheists, scientific atheists, are incapable of faith or religion. We are scientists! We take what the world gives us, and shape it into a well-founded theory.

And, I think religion can be dangerous, take the Muslim extremists over in the middle east. Are the people there inherently wrong? No, they’re religion did that to them. And, I can guarantee that if everyone supported science, there would be very little strife in the world, because people would believe in fact over opinions. Everyone would be ubiquitous, save for people of ignorance. But at least people with ignorance can learn, unlike those who are ‘wise’ in the wrong way…

Devils Daughter December 21, 2011 at 2:06 pm

Atheist beliefs in a nutshell for religious people: We believe in all provable or logical facts. The universe was never “created” because matter can not be created or destroyed. It was always here, the big bang just spread it out more. No book written 2,000 years ago written by nomadic sheep herders (Bible, Quoran, etc) can be trusted as perfect undeniable and unquestionable truth any more than the movie Star Wars will be the basis for a new faith 2,000 years into the future. Death is inevitable, everything and everyone that is born and came from nothingness eventually returns there when Life is over. Since there is no Heaven in the after life and no god, we must make our time on Earth heavenly for WE are god, each one of us has power over our lives. We also think you should get up off your knees and fix the world, starting with the 20,000 children around the world who starve to death daily because their prayers to god are not answered.

hesam December 14, 2011 at 9:04 am

i had a dream last night some one gave me a ring with a symbol on it i woke up and looking for that sign but i can’t find the symbol in this web site i just think maybe some one want to help me to know more about that symbol i can mail it for every one who ask so plz mail me thanks

Jennifer March 21, 2012 at 7:46 am

An image or even a basic description would be helpful. ;)

Tessa December 7, 2011 at 4:36 pm

for those who said that people were ‘born’ a certain way… EVERYONE is born an atheist, it’s society that teaches them that there is a GOD that created everything. (just like the way little kids believe in santa, until told otherwise, which unfortunately isn’t the case when it comes to religion)
Personally I see religion as a flaw, especially nowadays. Of course back then people needed an explanation for things they didn’t understand, but the one thing that I don’t get is – why do they still believe in all that crap?, when almost everything is proven scientifically and in a logical way which doesn’t make you look like a schizophrenic.

also. what happened BEFORE the big bang? well, I’ll answer that if you’re going to answer me this: where did God appear from?

The Black Cube March 22, 2014 at 5:41 pm

Nope. Everyone hungers for spirituality, not religion. Not that it will convince you but we have one universal Creator. Reject him & you keep on getting reincarnated back onto this prison planet until you know the truth. That’s what the sideways 8 means, infinity. We are infinite beings, some will return back to the source & some will keep reincarnating back here. Look into metaphysics.

Y-Chromosome December 7, 2011 at 2:00 pm

For those wondering why Atheists would want or need to either organize or self-identify, the answer lies in many of same reasons the faithful oragnize and identify.

We live in a democracy where special interest groups wield political power out of proportion to their numbers due to the ability to lobby, influence, advertise, provide funding and set the agenda. In an ideal world athiests, having no particular beliefs would have no particular interests, but in a political environment where Religions exert deliberate political influence, un-aligned athiests may wish to organize to better represent their interests in a broad range of areas where the promotion of this or that religious agenda may infringe on their collective interest.

Off the top of my head, issues like teaching so-called “Creation Science” in schools, the pro-choice vs pro-life debate, the wording of Oaths of office, public funding of faith-based NGOs and definition of marraige, are areas where an athiest might find their views in conflict with this or that religious agenda and wish to organise so that his or her views are better represented and defended.

Also we need people to meet on Sunday mornings.

Nathan November 14, 2011 at 8:27 pm

@ yo yo chicka. Atheist don’t think they are smarter then any one. We simply say “we don’t know” in the same way that we don’t know if there is a small monkey living in our oven. Yeah it’s possible but I doubt it. On the the other hand, religious people saying that their dogmatic bs belief in whatever god/gods is the only true and right religion. Sounds pretty arrogant to me. The reason for getting a tattoo of an atheist symbol or any tattoo is different for everyone. I get them and many other people get them to talk about and share. If someone feels passionate enough about the B.S. that is religion, they might want to talk about it.

Ilya October 30, 2011 at 4:15 am

What I have always found to be completely hilarious is when some Christians hear that a person is an atheist…they somehow make the connection that you must be a ‘devil worshiper’ or some evil-doing degenerate. LOL!! If I don’t believe in God…that pretty much makes that other guy a moot point. As I understand it, I believe they’re a package deal, right? ;D

Katie October 15, 2011 at 2:24 am

To ncmnt:
Yes, evolution and the big bang are theories, just like gravity.

LTI September 17, 2011 at 1:28 am

Because we do believe in something. And that is that there is no god or that we don’t believe in the traditional god. And our beliefs are always something to be proud of.

alex August 15, 2011 at 11:33 pm

@ Kim you dont choose what you truely believe in, they choose you

Anthrax August 12, 2011 at 3:48 am

K. so Ive been a believer in magic, and goddesses, and gods all my life, and have prayed to, and done spells with various religions, but: sometimes it works, and sometimes not, and I lost my faith a while back, til I came across a good friend of mine that has always seen, heard, and felt dead people all her life. I moved in with her, and one day I decided to try to see them, and feel them. so I used a kind of channeling, and now I cant shut it off! the spirit world is REAL! Ive been knocked down, talked to, and guided by dead things in the past few months that would make a normal person think they lost there mind! I have 2 spirits that are always around me now, and believe me, they exist. It turns out that some gods and goddesses retire, and pick up odd jobs like guiding and protecting us live people!

Robert June 24, 2011 at 10:55 am

As an Atheist, wearing a symbol or logo depicting the fact I’m a non-believer, isn’t a matter of pride as much as it is a statement of who I am. Christians and believers of other religions proudly display symblols of their belief: crosses, star of David, rosary beads etc.
I can’t say I’m smarter by possessing a “greater knowledge” because I do not possess knowledge of what I don’t believe in because how can one have knowledge of something that doesn’t exist?
Being a thinker and seeker of truth is something to be proud of. How can theists be proud of being naive and blindly adoring a mythical entity made up by ancient people barely out of the stoneage?

Audrey June 18, 2011 at 5:19 pm

@nobody in particular, atheists believe that all deities and religion were created by man. Actually, this is more than a belief, because a belief is just something thought to be true without concrete evidence (and, in the case of religion, in spite of it). Atheists KNOW that all religion and deities are made up.
Please stop confusing the terms ‘belief’ and ‘knowledge’.
I hope this answers your question.

Tod June 12, 2011 at 10:35 pm

An atheist doesn’t believe in a god or gods. That’s it. There’s nothing else to it.

The Narwhal Guy June 12, 2011 at 10:09 pm


I understand accepting organized religion, I can relate to that. But why identify yourself as believing in something? Is that really something to be proud of?

NightHawk June 12, 2011 at 8:16 pm

Evolution must have eyes, then.

“I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.” -Gandhi

I like Gandhi, Jesus, Buddha, and Mother Teresa, etc.

It’s possible to believe in God without believing in organized religion. That is mostly the human part in it. People change religions over time to suit their ideology, use it manipulatively, that’s why there are so many sects of the same religions. It’s mankind, I don’t trust.

Char June 12, 2011 at 6:41 am

I, as an atheist, have faith in myself. I don’t need a higher power in this world to make my life worth living. I strive to be a good person because I know it’s the right thing to do and I don’t need any books, psalms or letters to tell me that. My reward is here on Earth, not in heaven.

nobody May 14, 2011 at 5:30 pm

can someone (an atheist) explain to me what it is exactly that they believe…and is that what all atheists believe.
please clarify
i’m a dumb dumb

Spider-Man January 24, 2011 at 4:37 pm

I agree with Josiah and kim. And to answer CURIOUS’s question, atheists don’t reject organized religion because it’s organized. We reject it because we don’t believe in god. That’s how it isn’t hypocritical to participate in organized non-religion. However, once atheists and theists understand each other’s beliefs, there is no need for them to try to convert each other, because people will resist and others will persist, and things will get violent eventually. People’s religions are part of their own individuality, and we need to be able to live in peace together. Our religions are just another part of human diversity such as race, gender, and sexual orientation.

kim. January 3, 2011 at 7:18 pm

also, to the ignorant person who said you are BORN that way, no. I made the choice to not believe.

so you shut up too.

kim. January 3, 2011 at 7:17 pm

@ thatguythatprobablywontrespond- yes, it is something to be proud of! I am proud that I do not believe in any god. Why would it be fine for a Christian or someone of any other religion to be proud of that fact, and not fine for an Atheist?

so shut up.

Josiah December 27, 2010 at 6:21 am

Let’s delve into the etymology of “atheism” shall we?
The origin of the word is Greek.
“theos”-a god.
Nothing whatsoever is implied by the word other than a general disbelief in “god.” A “general disbelief in god,” does not constitute an overall disbelief in everything else and it is a logical fallacy so very characteristic of most religious people to assume that atheism immediately implies some state of meaningless and confused indecision or outright renunciation of existence itself. Afterall, if someone does not believe in MY god, then that person, logically, must believe in nothing at all.
An arrogant, mindless opinion based on a fundamental lack of understanding. As an atheist, I consider myself to be a deeply spiritual person, however I have no desire to follow any of your gods. They are mere symbols. Words. Placeholders for the incomprehensible. Of this I am very certain. I have many beliefs and faith in many things, just not those things which you godmongers so pompously tout as singular, unassailable truths.

ncmnt2 December 22, 2010 at 3:08 pm

Actually, I would venture to say that the commonly accepted BELIEF in the creation of the earth and all beyond it is simply faith in a belief system that scientists tout as fact. Theories are presented and debated, yet those who claim this idea of “intellectualism” and conform to atheistic standards are leaping on the bandwagon of faith. Being in support of something that has never been observed or able to be repeated is, quite simply, faith. Sounds to me like theists and atheists alike have no repeatable, concrete evidence for our inception. = FAITH!

bob November 22, 2010 at 12:14 am

Honestly, batman? it’s not a faithfulness, it’s a proud rejection of faith. It says that the only thing that saying a god did it achieves is a lack of understanding. Faith is belief in something without evidence, something which most atheists reject and refute.

Clyda November 21, 2010 at 5:03 am

@ CURIOUS: Actually, Jesus didn’t become part of another religion. He was Jewish all the way. He expected his disciples to follow Jewish law. It’s the Jewish that didn’t believe in him. Other than that, I agree totally with you.

BRANDT October 31, 2010 at 1:03 pm


haley September 11, 2010 at 7:40 pm

Yes. I’m so proud not believe in anything.

Batman September 9, 2010 at 3:59 am

I simply have to say is that if a Christian needs no logical reason to display their belief by sporting a cross, why should I defend my reasoning for displaying a symbol of my non-religion?

Also, for your enlightenment, Atheism isn’t a belief in nothing, it’s a disbelief of those mystical beings….basically a ‘faithfulness’ in people controlling their own lives and actions.

CURIOUS September 3, 2010 at 1:30 am

thatguythatprobablywontrespond almost had it right- why would you in rejecting organized religion end up joining organized non-religion? Seems like some people spend more time god-and-those-who-believe-bash rather than enjoy things! Like yoyochica said- I’m not saying either is right, But I AM saying that you’re not born into it. Sure religion is an aspect of culture and society (which you are born into- based on parents). And maybe religion is a larger part of society in places vs others…. but you can always grow up and be another religion- that’s what Jesus did!

anyways- ALL I was going to say before I saw the comments- that the Alogos look like vector symbols- like nasa and almost all other space agencies around the world.

fo July 21, 2010 at 3:33 pm

@yo yo chicka: I don’t think that religious belief or active religious rejection is something someone is “born” into. In fact, I know it’s not having experienced reversals in my own perspective. So that’s not really a fair comparison. Furthermore, symbols are useful for establishing your own identity as a person. Not everybody does it (not everybody feels the need), but there’s nothing arrogant about being open regarding your beliefs, likes, preferences, etc. Do you feel people are being overly “proud” for wearing band t-shirts or sports jerseys? There are also practical benefits such facilitating the process of meeting others with similar beliefs. Are churches being overly “proud” by displaying crosses? I think you are wrong to assume arrogance and animosity because somebody adorns themselves or their property with symbols they identify with. I don’t think there’s anything more mean-spirited about a Christian getting a cross tattoo or an atheist getting a “happy human” tattoo than there was when I got a my Star Wars tattoo.

yo yo chicka July 12, 2010 at 8:08 pm

@ thatguythatprobablywontrespond: some people see it as a thing to be proud of because they believe that they have superior intellect, that they have higher knowledge because they know that there is no god etc. I’m not saying it’s good or bad, that’s just my opinion. You shouldn’t be proud of being a believer/or nonbeliever. Just like I don’t understand people that are proud to be a certain hair color or w/e. You’re BORN that way, you had no decision what you were going to look like; what you should be proud of are achievements you have, like graduating at the top of your class or something along those lines.

whybloc July 4, 2010 at 12:09 am

The evolve fish and FSM logos both get my vote because they evoke a warm fuzzy gut laugh every time I see them.
And, though I know how boring it is to be subjected to reactionary comments on posts like the thatguywhoprobablywontrespond post, I have to anyway. So tgwpwr, who put it into your head that we identify ourselves with believing in nothing…and are proud of it? Are you reacting to the words non-belief, disbelief, and unbelief? If we believed in nothing…Wow…just the idea of it. Even the statement ‘I don’t believe’ obviously requires belief. Not believing in something and believing in nothing are really completely different things. Oh, never mind.

thatguythatprobablywontrespond June 29, 2010 at 2:03 pm

i understand rejecting organized religion, i can relate to that. but why identify yourself as believing in nothing? is that really something to be proud of?

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